Art & Artist - Human Creativity in the Age of AI
This podcast explores the human urge to create. The title, Art & Artist, comes from a book by Otto Rank, who, along with Adler and Jung, was one of the intellectual giants in Sigmund Freud's inner circle.
Art & Artist - Human Creativity in the Age of AI
Finding Beauty in Pain: Singer-Songwriter Anna Justen's Musical Journey
Welcome to the Art and Artist Podcast! In this episode, host Kyle Ariel Knowles sits down with independent singer-songwriter Anna Justen, originally from Seattle and now based in Montreal, Canada. Anna shares her unique musical journey, which began at 12 when she taught herself piano and guitar. With a style that blends indie pop and folk with experimental, grunge-influenced production, Anna is set to release her debut album, "Michou's Dream," on May 8, 2025.
Join us as Anna opens up about the inspiration behind her music, including her deeply personal songs "Buckman" and "Peppermint. " These songs explore themes of loss, family dynamics, and finding beauty in pain. She discusses the creative process, the significance of sampling her family's voices, and the emotional connection to her late aunt and cousin.
Listen in as Anna performs "Peppermint," a song that beautifully encapsulates her artistic vision and emotional journey. This episode is a heartfelt exploration of art as a means of processing grief and creating beauty from pain.
Here are three key takeaways from this episode:
- Transforming Pain into Art: Anna shared how her experiences with loss and grief have shaped her music. She believes art often serves as a means to create beauty from pain. This perspective is a powerful reminder that our struggles can fuel our creativity, allowing us to connect with others on a deeper level. Anna's song "Buckman," dedicated to her late aunt, exemplifies this beautifully, serving as a memorial every time she performs it.
- The Importance of Conceptual Cohesion: In our discussion, Anna revealed her decision to create an entire album rather than just releasing singles. She felt a cohesive project would allow her to express a complete narrative and theme. This approach emphasizes the value of developing a concept that resonates with both the artist and the audience. Anna's upcoming album, "Mishu's Dream," encapsulates her journey and the dreamlike quality of her experiences, showcasing the power of storytelling in music.
- Embracing Authenticity in Creation: Anna's creative process is refreshingly organic. She often starts with spontaneous ideas that evolve into fully formed songs. This highlights the importance of allowing ourselves to create without the pressure of perfection. As she mentioned, sometimes art flows out of us, and embracing that natural process is essential. Her song "Peppermint" emerged from a moment of inspiration during a trip, illustrating how creativity can strike unexpectedly.
LISTEN TO ANNA JUSTEN
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Kyle Ariel Knowles: Hello there, welcome to the Art and Artist Podcast. My name is Kyle and today's guest is Anna Justin, an independent singer-songwriter originally from Seattle, Washington, now based in Montreal, Canada. Anna's musical journey began at the age of 12 when she taught herself piano and guitar. She captured melodies and lyrics in her journals, developing a unique notation system. Her style blends indie pop and folk songwriting with experimental, grunge-influenced production. Anna creates a compelling and unique sound and is set to release her debut album on May 8, 2025, which explores themes of childhood, family dynamics, and finding beauty within pain. Welcome to the show, Anna.
Anna Justen: Thank you for having me. I'm happy to be here.
Kyle Ariel Knowles: Alright, I'm so excited to have you on the show. So you said at one time you were you were put on earth to make something beautiful out of what was or is extremely painful. Can you talk about that a little bit?
Anna Justen: Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think that's what art is a lot of the time for a lot of people, but that definitely is like what has gotten me through every hard part of my life. I think I've experienced quite a bit of loss and grief in my life. And so just to process that, I feel like a big part of that has been writing songs and Yeah, there's one song that I wrote dedicated to my aunt and my cousin who passed away and we never got to have a funeral for my aunt. And so every time I play it live, it feels like a memorial for her. And so that is an example of that, just how special it is for me.
Kyle Ariel Knowles: And was your aunt, was that during COVID or something? Is that why you couldn't have a funeral?
Anna Justen: No, it was before that. It was just that my family was kind of spread out and it was like a complicated situation just financially as well that and it never was able to happen. I mean, we had like, you know, we held space for her and stuff like that, but we just weren't able to all come together to have a funeral.
Kyle Ariel Knowles: So what's that song called?
Anna Justen: It's called Buckman.
Kyle Ariel Knowles: Okay. Yeah. I was listening to your whole catalog today. And I wanted to ask you about Buckman. And I'm guessing that your aunt is the voice kind of towards the end.
Anna Justen: Yeah, yeah, she is. That was her talking at my cousin's funeral, who's her son. And that was like a year prior to her passing away. And so yeah, I had that video for talking that I used part of that for it. Yeah.
Kyle Ariel Knowles: What were their names?
Anna Justen: My cousin's name is David and my aunt's name is Jane.
Kyle Ariel Knowles: You must've been really close to your aunt.
Anna Justen: Yeah. Yeah, I was definitely. She was a big part of my life. She lived in Portland and I grew up in Seattle, so I would spend a lot of time going down to Portland when I was a kid.
Kyle Ariel Knowles: Okay. That's the references to Portland.
Anna Justen: Yeah, exactly.
Kyle Ariel Knowles: This album release, it's May 8th is the date, right?
null: 2025.
Kyle Ariel Knowles: Yeah. You've released, I think, three singles from the upcoming album.
Anna Justen: Yeah. Yeah, that's true. The next one's coming out on Friday.
Kyle Ariel Knowles: Oh, cool. I can't wait. So you've got Peppermint out there, you've got Individualism, and you've got, is it Orange?
Anna Justen: Yeah, Orange.
Kyle Ariel Knowles: How many songs are going to be on the album?
Anna Justen: It's going to be 12 or 13, depending on if I decide to put this interlude in or not. It would be like a super like, like a five second interlude kind of thing. But yeah, 12 songs, I would say.
Kyle Ariel Knowles: And what made you decide to do an album instead of just really singles?
Anna Justen: Well, I mean, I feel like I just reached a point, well honestly, I had a former manager who was really persistent in pushing me to release singles. And so I did that and I was trying to play the game that everyone's playing of release as much as possible and I just felt like I wasn't giving enough to the songs. trying to push something quickly that didn't need to happen quickly. And so I just got sick of that and then kind of pulled back and thought about like, what am I actually trying to say as an artist? And what do I believe? And what do I want to express? And it just felt like it was time for me to make a full album that had a whole message and whole theme because it is a concept album and so that was that was really important for me and originally I was thinking maybe it would be an EP but then it kind of all this has to do with the concept of the album but it kind of all came to like a point where I was in the this like veterinary office after my cat Mishu had died. The album's called Mishu's Dream. And we were there with his body. He died really unexpectedly. And I just like had a moment of saying, my album is going to be called Mishu's Dream. It's going to be a full album. And it kind of the whole concept came to me in this moment. And so I just I had to like put a bigger project together, I guess.
Kyle Ariel Knowles: So is there like a golden thread through all the songs then, do you think?
Anna Justen: Yeah, definitely. I mean, the songs as they were written are just like moments of my life that aren't necessarily connected, but the theme that is connecting all of them in a way is similarly to that, like finding beauty in pain. It's basically Mishu was a really scared cat and he wasn't, yeah, he just like a little bit shy. And I always felt like it was his dream to see, I'm sorry, I'm like, I'm fumbling over my words right now, but my household that I grew up in was like really tumultuous, just a lot of fighting and yeah, screaming and like my family not getting along a lot of the time and like a lot of like fear there. And I felt like it was his dream to see my family work together and get along. And so it's like sonically his dream and that it's like there's it's kind of has this dreamscape element to all of the songs, but also literally his dream in in that I'm kind of thematically the songs go from a harsher, scarier place and from those feelings of more like fear to a place of acceptance and and coming together at the end of it. And also there's just, I mean, I'm sampling my parents' voices throughout the album and my sister's voice as well, and different sounds from around my house that I grew up in, where Mishu grew up. So just like kind of encapsulating like the actual, allowing the dream elements to like seep into the real world through the music.
Kyle Ariel Knowles: Mishu, what does Mishu mean?
Anna Justen: Mishu is, it's just a French name. And my grandma named him. And so I'm half French. That's why I'm in Montreal. And so yeah, it's that.
Kyle Ariel Knowles: So you have family on your mom or dad's side?
Anna Justen: My dad's side.
Kyle Ariel Knowles: Okay, how do they feel about you sampling their voices and stuff and using it in your songs?
Anna Justen: They definitely, like, I don't think they want to hear it, but they were happy to participate. The producer that I'm co-producing the record with came to Seattle. And we had my parents come one at a time and sit down in front of the mic and just say things that had to do with the song. And they were excited about that. But then one of the songs on the album called Shadow has my dad's voice towards the end of it. There's a little section of me singing in French, and then my dad's voice comes in saying the same thing that I'm saying. And when I played that for him the first time, he was like, I hate it. I hate hearing my own voice like that. But he grew to like it. But it was funny.
Kyle Ariel Knowles: I think everyone hates to hear their voice for the first time. Because you hear it so differently when you have headphones on.
Anna Justen: Yeah, totally. I remember feeling that way. And then I think I reached a certain point of recording music enough and listening back to videos of myself talking that I don't hear a difference anymore. It's very much the same to me.
Kyle Ariel Knowles: I'm sorry about Mishu and that was recently then within the past year or?
Anna Justen: That was like, I mean, the concept for the album came in 2022, actually. So it was 2022. It's been in progress for quite a while. Yeah.
Kyle Ariel Knowles: So you co-produce with someone else and then do you have sort of band members playing different instruments? Are you playing the majority of the instruments or what? Tell me about your process.
Anna Justen: I mean, yeah, for the recorded stuff, it's kind of a mix of different things. Milan and I are playing, I mean, I'm playing the guitar for almost every song. Orange is actually Milan playing guitar, but it's kind of a mix of both of us trying different things. I also have some different people coming in recording, like the bass on Individualism and Peppermint is recorded by my friend Ben Root, who is awesome, makes awesome music. And so he's put some bass lines on some different tracks on the album. I have another friend, Cirrus Levine, who recorded bass on that song where I sing in French. I've also had some people come in and record some viola parts, some trumpet, trombone. Those are gonna be on some of the other songs on the record.
Kyle Ariel Knowles: One thing that I really appreciate about your music, it feels so organic or natural and not overproduced. I love the production of your songs, but I'm just going to mention about, what was his last name? Root.
Anna Justen: Ben Root.
Kyle Ariel Knowles: Ben Root. If he played on Peppermint, I'd love the bass part.
Anna Justen: Yeah, he has such a good ear for bass lines. It's crazy. It always hits exactly where I want it to.
Kyle Ariel Knowles: So yeah, he's great. Yeah. And people don't understand that it's when he doesn't play that makes the song too. Do you know what I mean? It's like some people just play to be heard or whatever, but really good musicians have an ear for music, can play when they need to play and not play. It's the spaces in between sometimes that makes it even more powerful. So, and the reason you're on this podcast is because of Peppermint. That song just hit me and I didn't even know the meaning behind it or maybe the pain or anything behind it because it sounds like this bedroom pop. sort of happy-ish song, but there is some kind of melancholy or pain. And then when you start looking at the words, and I just, your lyrics are so cool because I printed them out and I'm like going, wait a second, these, you know, I understand the lyrics from listening to the song over and over. I discovered Peppermint in September. And it's still in my on repeat. So that's how much I played it. But when I printed out the words, and it's just, it's almost like you're a director of photography, in making a movie or a TV show, and you are like blocking scenes. And so it's so visual because when you say peppermint, bottle top, red ring, I mean, it's almost like you're pointing at different things like cellar doors, dinner plate. And so how did you come up with that kind of style? Are you mimicking anyone else's style or did you just you wanted to be very visual with the song peppermint?
Anna Justen: It actually it came like I had no intention of doing anything. Um, it was just, it just kind of is what came out of my mouth. I think most, most of my songs start that way of like, I start saying something and then I realize, oh, that's what I'm talking about. And then I can kind of fill in the gaps from there. But that song in particular, I wrote on a little weekend trip with my girlfriend at the time. And I just started playing that beat, like the guitar riff and started saying peppermint. And then I kind of realized, oh, this is about my aunt. Jane, actually. And yeah, and so it kind of came through that. And then through talking with my girlfriend about just like the different memories that I associated with that feeling. And like, yeah, I don't know. Yeah, just definitely wasn't intentional, but just happened.
Kyle Ariel Knowles: I love it. And that's the thing. It's so funny when you talk about, you know, how did you come up with this? How do you do this? Sometimes these questions are so stupid because art is just made and it's almost like taken from somewhere and you just start and then you go down this path. So I love your answer on that. So is this the same ant as in Buckman?
Anna Justen: Yeah. Yeah, it is.
Kyle Ariel Knowles: And so is Buckman a name? What does Buckman mean?
Anna Justen: Buckman is the neighborhood that I, uh, that my family lived in in Portland and also like where my cousin went to school and where I used to take swimming lessons as a kid when I would go down in the summer. Yeah.
Kyle Ariel Knowles: So not a, not a name, not a last name, right?
Anna Justen: Yeah, no. Although it is my, my other aunt's last name, but it's unrelated.
Kyle Ariel Knowles: What a coincidence. Okay. A question that my son had, he's a songwriter and producer as well. He's just turned 21, but I was saying, I was asking him, what questions would you ask a singer songwriter? And one of the questions he wanted me to ask was, how do you balance learning an instrument versus using an instrument to make music? Do you know what I mean? The difference between practicing and making.
Anna Justen: Well, okay. For me, it's probably a pretty unique answer, just in the fact that I don't practice and I don't think I'm that good at guitar. I really primarily learned. and play guitar with the purpose of writing. So I don't, there's not really a line in my mind, I guess. I, I mean, I learned the first like songs that I would learn singing were, well, I mean, they were just so I could sing along with them, first of all. So I was just like learning chords and this was always with the intention of writing. And because I was writing songs when I was so young, like my first memories were writing songs without any instruments. So that was always like, I just needed something to facilitate being able to write better and being able to write and remember and like have an actual structure. So it's hard to say. I think for me, the hard part is like, how do I, it's kind of the opposite. Like, how do I start practicing and not let that take away from, or like, I don't know, how do I actually just have a practice regimen that isn't writing and and i've been trying to do that more but it is hard for me and it's just not as fun for me like i i'm just naturally a singer-songwriter i'm not so much like an instrument instrumentalist i guess i don't know if that's the right word but yeah yeah that makes a lot of sense same and i just want to say same uh but what happens to me is if i do practice
Kyle Ariel Knowles: And I learned A9 on the guitar. It's a very easy chord to play. I mean, it's like you hold down two strings and like songs spring from just learning a chord. Do you know what I mean? You hear a chord and you're like, oh yeah, I can write a song from this. And so it's almost like the practice is helping facilitate, or at least the learning of something new, like a new chord, facilitates the songwriting process. But yeah. Yeah, I absolutely agree. when you're doing scales and stuff like that, you're like going, I'm not, I'm not doing what I love. Yeah. Do you have a favorite chord?
Anna Justen: Yeah, E6. E6. It's, it's my, it is my like, I can't stop using this chord. Yeah. It's, it's, I mean, I will, I'll play it anywhere, like I'll, I'll borrow it anywhere, but it's just this, okay, wait, it's like this shape.
Kyle Ariel Knowles: Beautiful.
Anna Justen: Yeah, it's just like an E but with that like six on top.
Kyle Ariel Knowles: It's really hard to reach that, especially with your pinky.
Anna Justen: Yeah, I have one song coming out that's like I'm doing this the whole time and then switching back between this and my pinky locks out all the time. It's like quite impossible, but yeah, I love that. That chord's in Buckman and many of my songs.
Kyle Ariel Knowles: And do you use a capo a lot?
Anna Justen: Yeah, I do. I mean, yeah, definitely.
Kyle Ariel Knowles: just just to put it in a key that's going to be easier for you to sing.
Anna Justen: Yeah, exactly. Or just to give me fresh ideas. Like if I'm like, I just yeah, I'll just put it on like, I used to break a lot on capo too. And then I stopped doing that for a really long time because I had written so many songs on capo too. And I'm coming back to it. Yeah.
Kyle Ariel Knowles: What's something that you heard that you've heard or seen recently that inspired you?
Anna Justen: Oh, that's a good question. I guess one thing that I saw recently that really inspired me was A Complete Unknown. It's kind of a basic answer, but the Bob Dylan movie with Timothee Chalamet, that one I just, I felt really inspired by that, watching Timothee Chalamet as Bob Dylan write all these songs. inspired me and immediately reinvigorated something in me to just write as much as I can. So that's one thing. And then also, I've recently met someone, a new friend of mine who writes beautiful songs, and he's been sending me the songs he writes, and all of those have really, really been inspiring me as well. He doesn't have any… He has one song out right now, but he's working on an album, but his name is Starbird is his artist name. And yeah, that has been inspiring me a lot.
Kyle Ariel Knowles: And then does your co-producer Milan have songs out as well?
Anna Justen: Yeah. Yeah. He's primarily an artist really. And like, it's kind of, I feel super lucky that I like got him to produce an album for me. It's not something he typically does, but yeah, I think that's why it's able to be kind of more like lo-fi production. It's because we're both experimenting. We don't really know, like, I mean, he knows a lot of what to do, but we're exploring.
Kyle Ariel Knowles: I just want to thank you, Anna, for being the first person on my Art and Artist podcast. I've reached out to several different artists, stand-up comedians, actors, and singers, and songwriters, and things like that. But you were the first to respond, and I was so excited to interview you today. Peppermint continues to support my grief because I lost my son a year ago. It's almost exactly a year ago. here in a couple of weeks. So I wish you a lot of satisfaction and happiness with your May 8th album release, Mishu's Dream. Can't wait to listen to the other songs and you have a song that you're releasing this Friday, but thank you so much for being on the show.
Anna Justen: Thank you for having me. Really, it's a privilege.
Kyle Ariel Knowles: Will you play a song for us?
Anna Justen: yeah for sure i can yeah i would love that i mean do you want to hear peppermint or yeah that'd be so great okay cool yeah it's gonna it's fine the connection's fine sounds great yeah okay
Anna Justen: Peppermint Cold tongue Upper lip Bottle top Red ring Can't wash it off Cellar doors Should stay locked Anyway anyway Dinner plate Tilted gate Wipe that look Off your face Cheat again One more time Drink from the bowl A glass of wine Anyway Anyway Anyway
null: Bedroom, basement, you knock on my door
Anna Justen: You don't want to face it like I said before Bedroom, basement, knock on my door You don't want to face it like I said before You, you said before Take what's not yours Is this what you came for? Is this what you came for? This is what you came for? what you said.
null: Peppermint bedroom. Bottle top.
Kyle Ariel Knowles: This is beautiful.
Kyle Ariel Knowles: Thank you so much, Anna. That was so, what a treat. And I can't wait to share this episode with the world. And I mean, I'm telling you, you know, you might be writing songs for yourself to metabolize whatever pain or, you know, problems you're going through, but it It affected one person in the world at least, and that's me. So thank you so much for sharing your gifts with the world.
Anna Justen: Thank you. Wow, I have chills right now and feel like crying for some reason. This is what I'm here to do in the world. It really does feel like this is my purpose.
